Gaylon: [00:00:00] Well, happy Thursday. Same to you. Hello everyone. Happy Roe V. Wade anniversary. It is Thursday in Chicago and I have with me a very special guest. But before I introduce her, I really want to kind of set the tone. This is all about Jane. The Jane Collective was officially known as the abortion counseling service of the Women's Liberation Front.

pre-Roe and it was an underground service. It was an underground abortion service here in the Chicagoland area. Women sought out the services of abortion care and they called a number and asked to speak to Jane. So Jane consisted of a lot of women. Doing reproductive justice work especially, you know, for poor women of color on the South side of Chicago.[00:01:00] 

I started my trajectory in the pro choice movement in 2005 and that's when I began to learn about Jane, did a lot of research on Jane and all the research that I've pulled up and that I look. I never ever knew that there was a Black Jane or there were Black Janes. And so this year I, or late, late last year I found a Black Jane, which, which literally blew my mind because historical context images, history, documentaries don't show Black Janes.

So, I have the opportunity to present to you Ms. Sakinah, who is a Jane, and she is going to talk about her experience in being [00:02:00] a Jane the time before then, this is just going to be a really great conversation. It's not an interview. You know, I've done my, my research and I've read up on it, but I just really wanted to be in community with her because she is a reproductive justice hero.

And we need to honor that and make sure that the world knows about that, that Black women, were doing reproductive justice work pre-Roe There were Black Janes and we are not going to let history continue to erase the very important work that women of color have done. So on that note, I introduce to everyone, Ms. Sakinah. 

Ms. Sakinah: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. It is an honor. 

Gaylon: You are welcome. Thank you for being here. I appreciate you. So I really want to just kind of open up the conversation with you talking about [00:03:00] like your work pre-Roe, like how, for the people out there, how did you even become a Jane?

Ms. Sakinah: Yes. Well going back maybe probably in the early later part of the sixties a friend of mine found herself with unwanted pregnancy and because we had such a good connection in social and, and circles that she hadn't really moved in, that I had moved in and been a part of, she reached out to me and when reaching out to me, we knew that those days were considered abortions, were back alley abortions when women were getting septic infections.

Cook County was full of women, and that's just so naturally, she was petrified. I was also terrified. I didn't know which way to go, but I knew whatever I had to do was to make her safe. She had already had three children. Husband was in the service, and it was definitely a need that she had wanted to terminate her pregnancy.

So I did some feelers and start reaching out. And [00:04:00] one friend called me and said, Listen, there's a service, all you have to do is just call them, leave a number, they'll call you back, and they'll set up an appointment. And I'm like, I got excited naturally, because I just assumed that she had it done through experience, that would give us a little bit more less fear to know somebody had been through that process already.

And she did mention, very clearly, and very precise, they are caucasian women. So, the experience with that, knowing that we were going into, not for me, but for my girlfriend, into an area that was really unknown to her. So we, I end up calling Jane, I got a call back, I set the appointment up, and her and I, we both lived on the north side of Chicago.

We took the train. I think at that time it was called the A train. There was no orange and blue and, and brown stations at that time. So we took the train and we went in, was treated very warmly when we first came in. [00:05:00] When we walked in, naturally it was some young girls, but it was a lot of diversity.

It was women of color, but more so caucasian, younger girls. And at the desk we walked in, there was a young lady, very bohemian, like with the curls and remember, this was this early part of the later part of the 60s, you know, with the curly hair and that. And my girlfriend was like, "Oh my", I said, "It's gonna be okay."

"You know, we're going to be fine." And she sat us down, they went through the counseling process to let us know exactly what to expect, what was going to happen. I sat in naturally to be supportive of my girlfriend. And she explained that at early part of they had started that women had to be blindfolded because their doctor didn't want to be seen.

Well, in this particular case, we were so happy that in turn she didn't have to be because the women of Jane had decided--one was in medical school--that they were going to learn how to do the procedures themselves. So we missed that part, which was really great for her. I was less fearful [00:06:00] of knowing that I'm going someplace, the unknown, and being blindfolded, not seeing who and what, and then putting your trust in that individual.

Gaylon: So you, so she was going, your girlfriend, you guys got there after they weren't using those men anymore. It was actually the University of College University of The women who learned, because 

Ms. Sakinah: I got trained, I got trained under the women that was going to medical school. 

Gaylon: Yeah, and they were at University of Chicago.

Ms. Sakinah: Some of them were. Okay, okay. It was only about one or two. Okay. That was there. Okay. But again, most of us had learned training through process, on-hand training. Okay. So, from there we understood that where we were at was called the, the, "the place", and "the front" where she was being taken to was "the place" they called.

So, it was a group of women they took. Naturally I had to stay at "the front". And in the process of me waiting there, I just kind of scanned around and looked around the room and just talked and naturally I was in my, as they called it, my "hippie days", so I had a huge afro, the bell bottom pants, the colorful platform shoes, the big earrings, you [00:07:00] know, and I was just sitting there and just observing and a young lady came in, two, two or three women came in and they, it was a very small room, so it wasn't that large for us not to see, so when you walked in you immediately could see who was encountered in the room and they immediately walked up to me.

And they were women of color, young girls. And they said, "Okay, what do I do?" And I'm like, "I really don't know." But because I understood they identified with me, naturally. Huh. And so I said, "I can introduce you to the lady that's the counselor, and she'll tell you everything." And for someone right then and there, there was this epiphany:

like, why me? And it sat with me for a while. And the young girls that were coming back and after they spoke to, and she won't mind me saying her name, which is Diane, was a counselor. She went through the same process with them that she did with me and my friend. And when they came back, they sat right next to me and we conversated in that.

And then they ended up going to "the front", to "the [00:08:00] place". My girlfriend, 

Gaylon: Ms. Sakinah, explain "the front" and "the place" for people that don't know. 

Ms. Sakinah: Okay. So the, "the front" is where you actually go after you've been given the instructions. This is where you go to meet the counselor, which, at that particular time, was Diane.

And she explains the process that, you know, exactly what's going to happen, that, you know, how many women possibly is going to be there that, you know, that a car is going to pick you up. The same car driver is going to bring you back. She, naturally she didn't give the location because remember, this is all illegal.

Exactly, so she didn't give me the location that again, she just, that we just put the trust in that individual who was doing the driving and those women that were going to be at "the place". "the place" was actually where they did the termination of pregnancies. So it's two different apartments. So it's two different compartments to this.

That they went to. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. So once my girlfriend came back from "the place" and she seemed, I could see this: her face was full of-- it wasn't joyful-- but it was relief. And I sensed [00:09:00] that. And on the way home, I said to her, "I think this is something I might do." And she immediately looked at me and she said, "Are you crazy?"

You, this is illegal. I mean, we went through this. This is fine. I made it through. But I'm really fearful for you. I don't think that might be a good idea. And if something's found out, your husband, your children, they're gonna, I said, "You know what? I'm used to flying without a helicopter. without a parachute."

It's okay. Again, I think because in my genes, I've come from a long line of social activists. My first cousin, James Foreman, was executive director of SNCC, which is Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee. My sister and I, my older one, we joined CORE, which is Congress of Racial Equality. Now, she ended up going to the march on Washington to hear Martin Luther King's first speech, I Have A Dream.

So we were long term activists of that. So I wasn't fearful any of that. I had worked with Black Panther through the Operation Breadbasket, had worked with that [00:10:00] and but my thought pattern was that CORE, even though it's Martin Luther King and was a wonderful movement-- it was a little bit too slow for me.

I'm a little more aggressive, and at that stage I was in my militant era. So, I identified with Malcolm X-- grassroots and by any means necessary. So, so with that, I knew that, okay, this is illegal, but it's much more of aggressive. I'm right in the midst of what's happening. And so I called Diane, I called the Jane number and she said, "Okay, I'm gonna give you" -gave me the information.

Well, unfortunately, and fortunately, I found myself pregnant. And in that midst of that, it was, that I knew the Jane number, but it was also, I wish I had never known it. So it was a difficult decision for me to make because I knew where I could go where to be safe as opposed to what we had heard about the back alley and [00:11:00] hangers and septic infections and that.

But on the spinning of that, it's like, "Do I really want to do this?" So there was that balance that I had to work out. And when I really decided and weighed the pros and cons, the abortion was my choice. So I called Jane and being familiar with "the front" and not "the place" cause remember only those who participate as far as having the termination of pregnancy was allowed to go to "the place".

So when I went, I went into "the place" and did "the front", did all the preliminaries and everything needs to have been done. and went into "the place" they examined me and I was too far. We only did up to 12 weeks and I was 12 weeks and a half, which means they would break the amniotic sac. You break your water, and you would have to miscarry at home.

They gave you instructions what to do and not to do. Well, naturally, there were might've been a group. They take women at a time. It could be depending on who's at "the front" might be 10 women. [00:12:00] You might have two cars. It might be. One conch is only five women. Well, I knew I couldn't leave, they couldn't leave those women that were having termination of pregnancies and bring me back. to "the front". So I asked, do you mind if I sit in? I really want to observe. And the Jane sisters was fine. And I'll call them my sisters only because of the connection we have with that. , but the Jane women said to me, it's okay with me. Let's just see if the petitions would mind. And every woman that they asked said, "No problem." so I was there holding hands. Holding legs, comforting, talking, taking their mind off of the process itself. 

Gaylon: Like an abortion doula, actually. 

Ms. Sakinah: Yes, actually. That's it. Huh. That's it. So I was able to observe and I was done. I was hooked. There's no, I was going to go back. Excuse me, I get a little emotional.

Just remembering the women and, you know. And what they were, no, I'm good, and what they were going through and just that camaraderie that we were just sitting there together. They didn't know me and I didn't [00:13:00] know them they didn't know the women around them that was working and doing the procedure and that.

The good thing about the Jane women, they explained step by step everything that they did. If they did the dilating, they did the curettage, they did the suction, everything was explained so the woman was aware of exactly what's going on with her body. On the table, there was a book called Our Bodies, Ourselves.

Gaylon: I remember that book. 

Ms. Sakinah: And in the process, we would, in the midst of it, we would train women how to do self-examinations From the breasts, to learn about breast cancer, and then just examination. And believe it or not, some of the women that were there had never experienced an orgasm. 

It was just amazing to, you know, in the process of just having the termination of pregnancy, just the learning experience that they were going to about their bodies.

And so, a lot of them came out with more knowledge going in, going out, than they had coming in. And so with that in mind, I ended up going back to "the front". And Diane wasn't there at that particular time, but they'd already had my number. Because, remember, I had already called previously a month ahead of time and they [00:14:00] called me and said, and I went in and again, at that particular time, I think it might have been one or two Black women were there, but they had exited and they hadn't stayed for them at the time. They've never worked at the, "the place". They've never really been at "the front". They were at a couple of meetings.

So basically I was, in that time I was the only Black woman that was in the service. 

Gaylon: So this is really profound. And I, and you know, some things have just kind of been bubbling in my head as you were talking. And so when women came into "the front", into like basically the waiting room, which was another whole apartment, and then they were blindfolded and taken to, 

Ms. Sakinah: No.

What happened would be before initially before they changed the doctors and the women started doing the procedure, they went blind at "the front". They were never blind at "the front" only when they got in the car going to "the place", 

Gaylon: right? Exactly, right? So that's what I mean. So 

So they they would take women to the other place to have the procedure and they were blindfold them. So what came through my head when you were talking was they were blindfolded going in to this experience not knowing a lot about their bodies and about the experience and then coming out like full of knowledge. Yes, actually, which is really profound when you think about it.

Ms. Sakinah: Well a lot of it, let me just say that's doing the change over once we once we got [00:15:00] I'm just gonna say one of the male doctors then we started doing more of educating the women because remember at that particular time the doctors did not want to be seen so the plan for they said we did the procedure they were done and they out and so it was a lot of time spent with the women, like once Jane women took over the procedures. So the women didn't really, at that particular time, they knew they had the procedure, they just simply just left. But when the Jane women took over, we found that it was profound for them to be able to have knowledge of what was going on with them, because some of them was, you know, not really aware of what actually was going on.

They knew the pregnancy. We talked about orgasm. Again, we had Our Bodies, Ourselves there. We did self-examinations So they have an idea of what their body and autonomy was all about. When they came in and when they left out. So yes, that, that changed when we got we started doing the procedures ourselves.

Gaylon: Mr. Kena, when, when you hear, like when I've said, I've done the research, Mm hmm. I never. When I was at the Chicago Abortion Fund, we did, we honored Jane and we gave [00:16:00] awards and things like that to Jane members. I never even knew that there was a Black Jane. So when you hear me say something like that, what come, what do you think about?

Ms. Sakinah: Like, Well, I will say you have to concern... the major concern was that it was an illegal service. This wasn't something we were doing that was out in the open. So we were underground and we had to be very careful. FBI at some point was following us at one point doing before Roe verses Wade, 7 women got arrested at "the place".

And so I wasn't normally concerned about saying that I was quote the only Black there. I knew what my purpose was and I served it. And so, even with the Chicago Abortion Fund, eventually, when Roe vs. Wade got turned and we came changed over, everybody knew, nobody talked about Jane. I'm being perfectly honest.

We started going into the legal process of that after Jane was over, and we worked a little bit. The seven women who were there got fined. We had a we knew it was coming down the pipeline. So we kept getting continuations and continuations [00:17:00] until 1971 when it was reversed. And so once that happened, the women never did, only spent one night in jail.

And so, it was never, we talked among ourselves, but it wasn't something that was public. And remember, a lot of the women, some of their families didn't know that they were even in Jane service. My family was supportive. My children, as a matter of fact, my youngest daughter that's there, my oldest daughter at that time when I started eventually, once I developed a rapport, with the Jane women, I started doing counseling in my house.

Once we started having let me just backtrack. When I first came, it was a lot of young caucasian women, young girls that were being terminated of pregnancy. Eventually, Black women, young women started finding out. And that happened, I felt that I should be in the core and the spearhead of doing the counseling in my house, which was another risk taker.

Gaylon: Mm hmm.

Ms. Sakinah: But I did that my daughter would pass out. The cards. They take out the information. Also, she would make Kool Aid. Grape E, the strawberry, orange, and pass out cookies. So I always say to her that she was the youngest member of Jane. Ten years old. ,and again, going back to your question.

I don't think that at that particular time there was that major concern. I [00:18:00] knew what I had done, what I had fulfilled and I knew then that I had gave a Black perspective to Jane and they walked away with that. 

Gaylon: Now what about now? What about like when you look at historical documents, like when I Google, I would just think that Jane was white.

Ms. Sakinah: I think that was automatic because remember, that's what it really was. The organization had contained White from the early part of, the founder from the early part of the 60s. So Jane has been in the process for a long time. It just went through involvement in different stages of that. Because a lot of them had, were in school and their friends had abortions and unfortunately had difficulties in those.

And so they had to call doctors and that. A lot of them had abortions themselves. And a lot of them were coming from privileged backgrounds. And so again, a lot of the families didn't know. So once when it was really obvious when the seven women got arrested, and all the women got arrested was white, the seven women. So we worked for a little [00:19:00] while and then after that we initially stopped. Once the law became legal, I started working. We got a call from Lonnie Myers, who owned Midwest Population Center and very innovative, provocative individual. And we started working with her at least two of us.

Myself and Eileen. She had went to school to nurse. And remember what happened was after Roe v. Wade and Jane we shut down. A lot of women went back to either incorporate. They went into doctoring. They went into nursing school. Everybody started continuing their careers. And really stepped away from Jane.

As simple 

as that. And nobody really mentioned it. I kept in touch with Laura. Because we became really good friends during that particular time. I kept in touch, who wrote the first women feminist book on Jane that, I remember I mentioned to you in the car that there was a blueprint and people start now recognizing Jane.

Jane was recognized when they did the HBO documentary. I wasn't in it. Because at that time I was having health challenges and I didn't [00:20:00] come go into the film. So nobody at that time even with the HBO documentary that they knew. I wasn't able to attend the Q& A that they had at the Davis Theater when they first showed it in Chicago.

So nobody really knew until they literally read Laura's book. That I was in the book anonymously as Lora Smith, which is my sister's name. I'm like, really? Okay. So that's when people started discovering that had to be. somebody other than just a caucasian. And that was the only Black woman in the Jane.

Gaylon: Okay. And so now, we have watched how reproductive justice work has evolved over time and take us up a little bit, into the future of things that you did like after Jane or where you found yourself after Jane around this work. 

Ms. Sakinah: Sure. After Jane, as I said before We got a call from Dr. Lonnie Myers. She actually wanted all the group, and at that time, we were literally maybe about seven of us. They still were keeping in contact with each other. [00:21:00] And naturally, as I said before, everybody was going into their own perspective, lives and changing and continuing school and education and that. I naturally volunteered because, one, this was financially great for me because it was a job and it was legal. I was actually on the books now. So I wasn't hiding anything. I could literally say, I worked for Midwest Population Center And we perform determinations of pregnancies. I ended up there.

I started working with another innovative doctor, Dr. John Long, who went to China and came back and we did acupuncture. procedures. Awesome. I learned quite a bit. The other part of the clinic was vasectomies that Dr. John Don Shaw used to do and he would let us sit in. So I watched him cut the sperm and very educational.

I stayed there for quite a while. But I continued from there. I kept tending going to downtown facilities. that were doing abortions. One was Chicago loop. I went there and then I hit Midwest population at the Midwest population center. And then Chicago loop, [00:22:00] there was a Filipino doctor and he started a clinic at had a clinic on the downtown of Chicago, 30 South.

30 South Michigan Avenue. At that time there was another facility called Biogenetics. It was at 520 North Michigan Avenue. Pam Sessman was the journalist that named us the Gucci Clinics. Apparently, she was terminated against abortion. And if that 

Gaylon: Sessman. 

Ms. Sakinah: Sessman 

Gaylon: Okay. I remember her. Huh. And I remember Pam Sessman Huh. Yeah. 

Ms. Sakinah: Now, when I worked for this Dr. Florendo, he was one of the richest Filipinos in the Midwest. His clinic was fabulous when I said you walk in. I had a $250, 000 budget. For advertising. At that time you could advertise. I advertised in Chicago Tribune, the Sun Times, the Defender, the Post Tribune Hammond Times quite a different world and I worked for that [00:23:00] facility over maybe 10 years or so, and after that unfortunately he got sick, 

and we knew in the interim that he wasn't going to last too long, and so with that But at that time, and any other time, termination of pregnancies and helping women and being part of the community was in my blood.

I didn't know which other way to go. And after that, I ended up in my house. I started Burning Park Plaza. Answering service with doctors and one of the doctors, which is Dr. Neema, I can say his name. He's awesome. He had, I was doing just some sideline business for him and he had went to a facility on 82nd and Dante.

Am I correct injury? Is that 86? Yes. 83rd and Dante. And he called me and he says, I need you to come and just check out some things for me. I said, okay, fine. And I went and It was a very small facility and I started again because what I had learned from Jane, I took that with me.

So we started doing callbacks started explaining to women the tetracycline and they didn't have the counseling. I incorporated that actually when I worked [00:24:00] at Dr. Florendo's office. I was Director of Counseling. So everything that I had learned from Jane. I incorporated that we went into the room and handheld.

If there were women that were general, we had general anesthesia that would sleep. I made sure that a woman was in the room when they woke up. Just all different thing to make the comfort of the woman being comfortable when they went to sleep and before they, when they woke up. Even in the process with local anesthetic, we had women that would hold hands and talk.

As a matter of fact, my daughter walked in the clinic doing machine. So this is a family legacy that we took on. . And so after that, when I went and worked with him, and unfortunately I just said he passed, I did the Burnham Park Plaza, I went into the facility on 83rd and Dante with the same perspective that I had at all the other clinics, same thing with Jane, still in the forefront, and At that particular time, unfortunately, doctors were getting harassed and some of them were getting killed.

And one doctor, I think in California, got killed. And Dr. Nita's wife was petrified, and she said, you can no longer do this. I said, [00:25:00] can I take it over? And he said, sure. So I took it over. I opened up. It was a very small facility. We had reclining chairs that we purchased and we opened a recovery room.

We opened up two procedure rooms. There was a recovery room in that I hired independent doctors because I didn't have a license to be a doctor. I had independent doctors as contractors. We had staff of very diverse staff. I started from there. We were all women of color. So we had even the doctors, we had a African doctor, we had a Chinese doctor, we had American doctor, we had the staff was Hispanic, Chinese and from there we grew.

It was tremendous. Again, the work was a lot . 

Gaylon: That's a lot. I'm sure it was that. 

Ms. Sakinah: At that particular time, I don't know if you knew Friendship Medical Center. 

Gaylon: Okay. 

Ms. Sakinah: Back in the day, there was a friendship medical center. 

Gaylon: Where was that at? 

Ms. Sakinah: On 70 something, I think near Southside, near Cottage Grove, around that [00:26:00] area.

And the doctor, Dr. Howard was one of the doctors quote, it was in the book. So it's okay to say that was one of the doctors. So that facility closed. There was something tax, whatever the case was. So eventually there was no other clinic on the South side of Chicago. 

Gaylon: But yours 

Ms. Sakinah: Exactly. Okay.

Because by the time I got there, his had shut down and we came in. It was a very small facility. We grew. The word got around. We did quite a bit of advertising. We named it Saab as a medical group after my children. My first name is Sakinah. There was Andrea. There was Sayeed and Bahija. And that was the name of the facility.

We did, my son was a marketing director. My daughters ran both of the clinics. Then we, simply we, it grew. We started at 106th Street. 3700 East 106th Street. We started with one room. It's a domain now because it's a library. But when we were there, it wasn't. It was 3700 East 106th Street.

We started off with one room for pregnant, free pregnancy testing. [00:27:00] We ended up with that one room free pregnancy test and I ended up with six suites. I took over the whole floor That's just how women of color needed and so we were getting women from all ages demographic. We were doing teen scene counseling We just enriched a whole part of enlightened women in terms of termination of pregnancy.

So you just didn't walk in and have a procedure. You were left out being feeling that relief, but being educated, being loved, and being supportive and was able to tell your story. And we listened. And that's, I think that's why the clinic grew to that point. 

And, and, what you're explaining is reproductive justice.

It is reproductive justice because ensuring that, not only you're providing a service for women that want to terminate a pregnancy, but you're providing with support Yes, to continue on with their lives. And so that's like really powerful So when you think about all your powerful work that you've done because [00:28:00] Like when we're in the middle of it and I can say that it's like doing abortion work when you're in the middle of it, you're not thinking, Oh my God, this is so profound.

You're thinking we got to get this stuff done. We got to raise money. We got to do this. We got to support the women, but like when you're sitting alone with yourself and you just like think about your life and The work that you've done and lives that you've changed and the lives that you saved.

What's a what do you, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? What do you be thinking? Oh my 

God. I think the very first thing is I think about, I made it out. I got safe. I didn't get arrested. That again, as I said, I'm a risk taker. And that was, even though that was there, it was always in the back of my mind.

So the very first thing I always think about is relief. The other thing that always comes to vision for me is the women. There is a portion in Renee's book that we talk about that the trust factor that women had totally different. My experience totally different from when it was illegal for me [00:29:00] moving into the legal spectrum, totally different.

Because remembering the legal spectrum, the women gave their name, they gave information. We did callbacks. They could actually even sue you depending on the situation. The women, And the legal service was not able to do that. And there was one incident, and I always, it brings tears, actually when Renee and I were when Renee was interviewing me, I should say, it brought tears to both of our eyes.

And it was an incident, my daughter and I, the same daughter, my young Jane member, we were, And remember I started counseling in my house. So women were aware of where I lived at and that, and her and I was walking down the street. We were coming into the building and a lady stopped me and she says, hi, how are you doing?

And again, because my service was illegal, I, tried to not divert from the fact, Oh, I knew you from Jay that was never coming out of my mouth at any point at any time. And so I just looked bewildered. And she says, you don't remember me? And I'm like, no. And she says, yeah. Jane. And because [00:30:00] my daughter knew the terminology, Jane, she just looked at me and said, That's mama's work.

It's okay. And I said, Yes, I do. Okay, fine. And she says, I didn't pay you. I said, You didn't pay her. She said, No. At that time, we only charged $1 to $100. And remember earlier, white women had the privilege of paying $500 or going to Puerto Rico or going to New York to have the procedure done. So $1 to $100 for us, we took whatever anybody paid.

would accept it. And she said to me, I never did pay you. And I said, Oh it's okay. And she says, No, it's not. For every week, she slid 10 in the envelope up under my door. Those are the things I think about. Yeah, those women who put their trust in us that had no idea who we were, where we were never could get in contact with us again.

And for her to do that it just brought a flood of emotions, really a gamut of emotions. All the women that I had [00:31:00] held hands with, held legs with and talked to, heard their stories and shared their sorrow and then shared their happiness and their relief once it was all over with. So that's what really comes to mind.

Yeah. 

And people don't really understand that, that are not like. Doing abortion work, and I remember like being at the Chicago Abortion Fund, and running an organization Is different than actually doing hands on work, and so I decided to be trained to become abortion doula Which I did, and I was a doula at one of the hospitals here in Chicago And actually being in a room with the women holding their hands, all different type of women for sure.

And watching them go through this and feeling their emotions as they were going through this in my hand, as they were holding my hand, squeeze even a little harder than others. And that's right. It's just, it's a profound, powerful experience too. So I completely get and understand understand [00:32:00] what you're feeling.

So then I have another question. So here we are in 2025 and our world is, Roe is no longer legal. Yes. What are your thoughts when you when all that was transpiring, what were your thoughts? The first one, 

my first emotion, I was angry. I was angry and it was unbelievable because we had, we're going back 50 years of this.

The anger even intensified when they started putting bans. And where you can go in that, and how many weeks in that. And knowing the fact that I've worked in all these facilities and had my own, as a matter of fact, during this time I opened up three Southside locations that we worked out of. And just to know that women sometimes didn't know their cycle.

Someone was not familiar with their bodies. Some of them were quite young. We were getting young girls in, 14, that unfortunately, during the crack epidemic, grandmothers was raising children because either the father, mom, was either incarcerated or on crack. [00:33:00] Whichever way the case was. And so a lot of women had no idea, maybe two months down the line, that they missed a period and said, Oh my God, I might be pregnant.

Now we got a ban and saying you have to know this in six weeks. Now, early part of the going back, backtracking when I worked at Michigan Avenue Medical Center, when Medicaid was paying for terminations of pregnancy, but we were called early extractions. So a woman really had to know her body in order to do that, because if you were ten days late, you could have an extraction.

And they were considered like a blood clot that would come. How many women know exactly their cycle? How many women have irregular cycles that they might not come on every two months? And there was that fear that I knew women were going through at this time. I was fearful for my granddaughter. I was fearful for other young women that I knew that might be going through these changes that would hopefully be able to make a decision for abortion, would have to travel.

out of state, like we did 50 years ago. We were sending women to New York to have terminations of pregnancy. Puerto Rico and that. But then [00:34:00] those women were privileged. So now I'm looking at Chicago abortion funds, which are trying to come up with income to get the women. The fear factor that I can't tell anybody.

So they didn't have the support. At this point now, abortions seem to go back, past even 50 years in the early part of the century where women were maybe falling down the stairs, drinking bleach, anything to prevent continuing a pregnancy. And that was my fear that women would go back to that. 

Yeah.

Yeah. And we're here because women are dying in other states. We are, Illinois is a blue state, but we're surrounded by red states. And so Women are coming here in droves to have procedures here because in Louisiana, it's illegal. You can't have it done. Mississippi. You can name them.

Every place. Utah. All these places. And we have taken a step back. But what do you think are some practical ways [00:35:00] that we can work towards justice or to resolve this? Do you have any thoughts about that? 

I think the first thing is what we're doing now. We have to have a conversation.

Women have to talk about this. I think the awareness and be educated. Whereas before, when we were not, the clinics were open, you could look in the yellow pages, you could look at individual, you can go through newspapers, and information was there. Our community has to share. Write books as Renee and Laura did.

I have a social page that I call Stakina's Choice. So I'm putting information out there. When there's a state that's been banned, I'm posting it. When there is something that in terms of fines come, I'm posting it. And I think that's it. Women are telling their stories. Which is really great, because now this generation was not even aware that As we talked about before, was not even aware of Jane, not even aware at one point that it was illegal.

They lived in a world where 50 years said it was [00:36:00] illegal. So now these stories are being told and being shared and supported. I think that's the first step. I think the open conversation is imperative. And when people hear that and see the need, I think we'll open up. Now I can't tell you exactly when this is going to overturn.

I'm hopeful. As a matter of fact, one of my girlfriends, that used to be a nurse in one of my facilities, assumed it was overturned. She calls me and says, We're going to open up another. Abortion clinic. And I'm like, do you realize how old we are? That's not going to happen. We have to find some other source that we're going to work with this.

But I think it's easier now because you've got the abortion pill that's out. But again, I think women to be informed, share their stories. Those women who've had terminations of pregnancy don't feel that stigma. They don't wear the A across their chest. They're openly able to talk about that and share those.

I think if you have children, young girls, that I've spoke to, my children know I've had a termination pregnancy. My granddaughter knows. I think [00:37:00] these are things that open forum needs to be done so women can be aware. And then we can pass the torch and fight. My page is more so to inform women of what to do. Again, this-- I've had open up, I've done interviews with books and that's what I'm, I think that's my part that I'm doing. 

. And I, and it's really important. When I think back to like me doing research, right? . And not even knowing about exactly, you, there you go.

And so I think. definitely archiving our history, our voices, our experiences, our stories are going to be important because people, younger people did not even experience stuff pre-Roe. They didn't experience getting arrested for having an abortion. They didn't experience that. And so we are really at a come to Jesus moment here where, yeah, we've got to tell our stories.

There's definitely, We've got to work around legislation. Yes. What do you think we should do here in [00:38:00] Illinois to continue to keep this a blue state? 

I think we have to start from the ground up. And that's, we always think about presidential elections, but we have to be on the forefront.

We have to start from the aldermens. From the people that are going into Congress, and that's where the judges, people have to be educated with that because they come out for presidential election, but they don't realize from the ground up, it's where we start from. We're fortunate that we have Governor Pritzker that is a strong advocate for social justice and reproductive rights, and that helps.

Again, we've got, which is a blue state. And that and I think that is a major concern is that we need to start from the ground up to educate people that say this is who you need to vote for. We need to look very carefully at judges. When you go vote, you really don't have any idea. They got a list of judges.

You have no idea what their beliefs is, what they're concerned with. That you don't, you just, okay, the name, and that's it. So I think we need to start educating people from the ground up. From the ground down and then ground up. 

Gaylon: That's exactly what I do. Every election cycle I post on [00:39:00] Facebook a list of judges on an Injustice Watch for people to read.

Cause like I read every single thing about the judges cause, they're the ones that are making these laws and making these decisions. 

Ms. Sakinah: But see, you one out of less few, because a lot of people don't. I remember we went to this election, you didn't have to vote for the judges. They said you didn't have to vote for them.

So you had no idea who actually was going to be in office for the next two to four years. So I think that's important that we start from legislation. We need to know who's lobbying. We need to know who's going down in Washington D. C. Who's making the laws. That's what we need to do. And more women need to be vocal.

Gaylon: Exactly. Especially women of color. Exactly. This has been so informative. Yes. First and foremost, I just want to say thank you. Definitely giving you your flowers and honoring you, your work your passion just the justice frame that you carry around, bodily autonomy is so super important.

Thank you for that. And, thank [00:40:00] you for all your work. I appreciate that. Over, Over all these years. Yes. To get us to this point. Without, heroes like you and other Jane members, would we have even gotten to this point? Yes. And so this is just a profound moment for me.

Yes. And I thank 

you so much. Yes. 

Ms. Sakinah: And I wanted to add a footnote. Um, surprisingly this has reached, we just did maybe in August of this year, early part of the year. We did a, uh, initial interview from, uh, reporters and they're from Brazil. 

Gaylon: Yeah, because people want to know. They want to 

Ms. Sakinah: know, and they've experienced a totally different kind of, uh, ban on terminations of pregnancy and just the, uh, the whole bit of, uh, the fear factor of going. So similar to what we're dealing with. And so when they got it, they couldn't believe. This is a third world country. And we dealing with the same thing you guys are dealing with. So all these things again, coming out, as I said before, uh, initial passing the information, letting people know exactly what's happening [00:41:00] and what we experienced in the United States, not just in Brazil and other countries.

So, uh, I think Renee is going to go to Australia. So it's amazing how profoundly this has turned into worldwide, you know, because women, we everywhere. Exactly. You know, and so we should be educated. We should know and we should all be in the fight because this is a fight. This is a struggle. This is not going to be easy.

You know, and I said all the time when I post anything, I always say, "The fight continues." It goes on and on and on. 

Gaylon: Yeah. 

Ms. Sakinah: Yeah. 

Gaylon: As long as we're alive, we got to continue to fight for justice. We do. So yes, we do. There's no rest for the weary whatsoever. Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Thank you. This has been amazing.

Um, thank you so much for joining us. Uh, enjoy this conversation and grandmothers for reproductive rights. We'll see you [00:42:00] around.